I use the lag to read the table roll, or whether the cueball is true

Doug

My problem with it is this. No one really uses it. So 99.99% you flip a coin. To lag will just benefit the person that plays on those tables. Its not really skill, its knowing the table speed. So now with a traveling league you lag againts someone who knows the tables far better than you. Plus you dont lag all the time so it only benefits the couple people who do it. So I say flip a coin and get it over with. The majority of pool got rid of it so why would one league keep it? Plus its not enforced in the league. Most people are flipping coins. But its in the rules so if your opponent wants to lag you have no choice.
o obviously if they ask you to lag its in there favor.

I don't see what the big deal is. I would think most players play a game ot two before their match so do a practice lag before hand to see how the table rolls. It's one thing that makes M8 different than the other leagues like an 8 on the break is a win only in M8. I take it as just another challenge and try and win the lag and then break and run out and maybe they will want to flip next time. Not sure why something that only happens 00.01% of the time would bother you!

99.99% COIN FLIP? Can I see the imperical data that supports such a claim? I've been shooting multiple leagues for years and yes, some flip, some lag but not 99>99% (based on 15 yrs).

Whether you choose to admit "the skill" is your choice. It is a "skill" to figure out or determine the table speed, gain advantage withthe lag for break and run the table out. Seems like a "skill" that can be used in a strategy to me.

So, if a player wants to "lag", I personally consider it a challenge as I will lay that baby right on the rail..... A coin flip only offers me a 50/50 chance.

Lastly, if you don't like the rules, there are many, many, many different league systems out there....GO FIND ONE THAT FLIPS!!!!! SIMPLE

I love this board. Dont like it go somewhere else!
Love that response. Next time I wont use my name so we can get "Be a man use your name"

If its a rule all should follow it. Or at least put some ruling in on who decides!

Now everyone run out a practice your lag.

This isnt a big deal people. Just curious on who even does this anymore. Two seasons of m8. I have lagged once. I cant remember other than that the last time I did. Ican find alot of better things to do than practice my lag. Plus most of the guys I have seen want to lag in leagues I could care less if they broke first or not.

You mean like coming on this board and ******** and moaning about anything and everything? You first option was have the home team decide..and then you said a home player would have an advantage cuz he/she knows the table speed better. Just admit, Alan, you were doing nothing, and you were bored, and this is the best gripe you could come up with. I haven't read the rest of the posts yet, but I'm sure somewhere you will get in the part about how everyone should play equal, like you usually do. Give it rest, dude!

Jer,
I'm pretty sure Im not ******* or moaning. I really dont care. Sorry I posted something actually pool related. But Thank you for your wonderful insight into pool. I will take your advice under careful consideration.

It needs more control. Either do it or dont do it. If someone wants to lag you have no choice but to lag.
At least do something that says home teams choice.
It shouldnt be up to just the people who want to lag.

Why shouldnt it be up to the person or people who want to follow the rule? I pose a couple of questions for you. Remember I dont know you at all. 1. Why worry about such a trivial rule? 2. The rule would only matter if you have a good break.Do you?

So to answer the last question and ask another trivial question like yours Alan;

For anyone who actualy knows Alan rate his break on a scale of 1-10. 10 being the best.

Alan's break is about an 8. It's good but he could control it a bit better if he let off the power a bit.

Hey Steve.
1st. I didnt really start this post just to talk about the rule. I honestly dont care. But I was interested to see what people think about having to lag for break. I figured we might actually have a pool related discussion on this board again. That kind of answers question 1 also. Question 2. My breaks alright, but it really dosnt matter there either. The couple people I have seen push the lag can break first anytime. The mojority I have seen dont play well enough to run a rack that often. So if they want to get a few balls out of my way more power to um.
My only complaint in the rule is most of the time people dont lag. Why because I happen to play the one guy that likes it should I have too. So 4 players in the match flip, but my guy wants to lag. So I have to lag.
I would at least make it home players choice. Kinda like playin for cash at the bar. If your putting coins up your usually playing by the rules of the guy who controls the table.

Alan, might there be another reason for the break than running out, such as choosing the balls you want rather than being stuck with the 7 that landed on the rail or tied up? Just curious I know men think different. Chris

Think different? Is that why we sperated tournaments by gender? hehe just kidding. Sorry Chris couldnt resist that one.
Of course I would rather have the break, Even if I cant run out I would at leat like the choice of table. But its amusing that most of the players I have seen in the league Im in that want to lag are all very low rated. So if they get choice it wont make a whole lot of difference. They get 3 or 4 balls out of the way and I play a couple safes and have no problems left. The lag only effects that one game usually. One night my whole team had to league except me. My opponenet wanted to lag until he realize my rating was 45 pts higher than his.

Hey Alan,
We had 3 matches lag for the break last night. We won all 3 lags. The players lagging were rated 119,106, and 93 respectively.They want the break because they do run out easier with there break rather than the potentialy poor break of a lower ranked player. You are on to something giving the home team the option of lagging or flipping.

I lag about half the time I play a game against someone. It's a part of billiards, no matter if you play 14.1, one pocket, 9-ball, 8-ball, or three cushion. I don't play M8 either, but in my straight pool league it is standard to lag for break.

It's just my opinion, but in any type of tournament or league play, I think lagging should be required.

The 8 ball leagues I play, the break is predetermined per round being played. When I play 14.1 the lag is very important as I want to win it and let my opponent break. Seldom play on coin operated tables.

-dennis

I have a different opinion about the lag, but I still think that it was a good question. Ever since I have been starting to lag more in tournaments, I have been wondering about it also. I think that all of the state tournament used to be Straight Pool in the Bill White days and I am sure that they had to lag for break. I wonder when people started flipping a coin to figure out who would break?

I agree with you about the negative comment. In general, I am tired of hearing that comment when people don't agree with you. I know people that won't post anymore or very often just because they are afraid of someone attacking them.

I've had to lag once this year in M8. The first week. I put it right on the rail and haven't been asked to lag since. But it is a skill that does come in handy. If you have ever played target pool, you'll see a ton of lag shots. And it is interesting to see that many, many players can't put it on the target on a simple lag. I mean if you can't do that, how the hell do you expect to play shape?

I think the more I read the word 'lag' the funnier it looks...

I personally like the lag (haha) rule. It's a decision maker based on ability rather than chance.

If you flip for break, you might as well flip for the win. Why even play the game??

How about rock, paper, scissors for the break? There is skill in that and it's more fun than lagging.

I don't care for the lag so much either but it is part of pool. I do agree that I dislike the M8 rule that if your opponents wants to then you have to. But then again rules are rules.

Not sounding mean or anything but is the reason you don't want to lag because your not good at it? I'm just wondering. I'm not very good at it

Hey Mr T Jr.
No I'm horrible at it. Its not something I care to practice. But that has nothing to do with my post. I was just something to bring up besides Happy b-day to so and so.
Hey TJ I'll even spot ya the break so we dont have to lag!

What's wrong with wishing people happy birthday?? Did I miss yours??!!

I love to lag for the break. There is a much better chance of winning the break than flipping and rock paper scissors would also have a better chance than flipping. If you haven't arrived there early enough to practice for your match it is a good chance to check the speed of the table somewhat. Problem is you need 2 balls and if there is not, someone has to put money in and that may be confusing "oh my".
For not being good at it it's one of those things you need to practice as it comes up many times in the game, lagging for a ball for a shot etc. It is more time consuming but I would prefer it as it has a bit of competitiveness about it. Not that most pool players are competitive but. Good Luck all Chris

I think the lag rule could be implemented in any tourny where the opponents are tied. At this point you get rid of looser breaks,alternate breaks. Ya get up and lag. It can be used in a team event also. Score is tied, the two choosen get up and lag. I'd love to see that!!

I don't usually lag for the break because it's leagues and I don't really care.

Come tournament time, I would like to see it because I do think it's a skill. It takes the dedication of showing up early and learning the tables as any champion would do and it takes knowing and controlling your stroke. Flipping a coin is pure statistics. If you are the caller and choose the same side of the coin every time you are bound to win the first break 50% of the time.

Ok, I posted already but I'll chime in. Pool players are ultra competitive and argumentative. The coin flip is one thing that there is no argument about. It's either heads or tails.

I can see arguments over the lag that I don't want to deal with. What about if it's too close to call? What if somebody waits almost a full second. What if one ball crosses the center line? What if a ball goes in the pocket? What if they hit each other? What if one bounces off the end rail and the other doesn't and it's close? What if there is table roll? What if there is a dead spot on the rail? What if some debris causes the ball to change course? All of those problems could arise before the match even starts.

No thank you.

We had 2 of Martin's what if's happen last Thursday during a match. The visiting team wanted to lag, and after the first lag they decided it was a tie, and on the second, our players ball table rolled into the corner pocket!! I would usually respond to what if's with if the dog didn't **** in the yard you wouldn't have to pick it up but Martin hit the nail on the head with 2 of his!

That's a good point Martin, but out of all of those issues they hardly or never comes up at the tournaments I have played in. If the ball hits a side rail or goes in the pocket you lose the lag. The only thing and I have rarely seen it happen is that the balls are close after they stop and then someone just needs to make a call on who is closer. Sometimes the lag is just done over if it is too close to call.

k, I think we are missing what I thought was the original purpose of the post. Maybe I'm wrong but here goes. Why is it that when one person under M8 rules says I want to lag and you have no choice? I agree with Alan, shouldn't it be more fair that the home team gets choice?

I played both M8 advanced and Triple Crown for 2 seasons. In Triple Crown, I lagged once and did rock paper scissors once. Other than that, coin flip. In M8 advanced, I lagged at least 4 times in two seasons.

If I'm wrong on your point Alan, please correct me. But I like your idea that it's home teams choice. Or, maybe even it could be whoever puts up first in a round has the choice...???

This is too funny... Don't all of you know by now that Alan is laughing his butt off and seeing how long he can keep this going? He loves seeing how long he can get the posts or thread to go, good topic by the way Al. He loves it when people get mad, especially when their isn't really any reason to be angry.

I think that Grant G. (Aimee's boyfriend - don't want to spell his last name wrong) should chime in on this one with one of his funny anticdotes. Maybe a "real men of genious" or something.

Well I guess I can't leave without my opinion on the lag... Ready? Here it is...

""""" Who really cares """""

It's apart of the game and has been since the game was invented and it won't go away.

Good One Alan!

daxs

I think both players should agree to do whatever they want to determine the break.

Rock, Paper, Scissors, or thumb wrestling, maybe see who can hold their breath the longest.

In M8 it is a rule. Period. If both agree to by pass the rule, then fine, go ahead and arm wrestle or what ever. but if one of the 2 want to play by the rule, then that is the way it goes. End of discussion. It is and always has been a part of the game and I never fault newer players for wanting to do it. I just usually do not want to exert the energy. Yawn.

From the rule book:
2. THE LAG: As soon as both teams have chosen the players for a
set, the players will lag for the opening break. Rules affecting the lag
are:
a) Players lag simultaneously.
b) One player lags to the left of the center string, the other lags to the
right. If a player causes their ball to cross the center string and contact
the opponent’s ball, they have lost the lag.
c) The lagged ball can only contact the rails at the foot and the head of
the table. Any contact with a side rail or the jaws of a pocket is a loss
of the lag. A scratch is also a loss.
d) The ball coming to rest closest to the head rail wins the lag. It
makes no difference whether or not that ball makes contact with the
head rail.

Hey Toke.
There are alot of things that were once part of the game that are no longer. Last pocket, bank the 8, ball in kitchen. Balls were spotted in 9 ball etc...
The lag is hardly ever used anymore. Why have that as the set in stone rule? Rules need to change and be updated ocassionaly. At this time I just happen to think this is a strange rule to have. No Biggie!
This is just a discussion on the lag. Just because its a rule dosn't mean I have to agree with it.

I think some people are missing the point of the question. It isn't whether lagging is OK or not. It's about making it so that there is a guidline for who gets to decide. As it is written right now for M8 there isn't any distinction on who gets to decide that. I agree it should be more specific. Counting on players to decide on their own could cause conflict. Wouldn't it be easier if the rules state Home team decides or maybe the first player thrown?

Actually per Toke's post it seems pretty cut and dry, we should all be lagging for the break per the rules, but 99.99% of the time we choose to skip the rule and flip, or in some crazy instances, rock, paper, scissors it! I think it should go by body wieght, then I would be breaking 99.99% of the time

HELLO! Earth to Angela! Toke just posted the rule!

HELLO, Jer. Read my post again. I wasn't asking what the RULES are. I am questioning if they should state WHO gets to DECIDE.

RUDE MUCH.

Hi Angela,
I think the interpretation of the rule would suggest that there is no decision to be made by just one person. As far as the M8 rules are concerned, you will lag for the break.
In most cases, however, this rule is disregarded and people just want to flip a coin. If one wants to flip, and one wants to lag, you will lag. Doesn't matter which person wants to do which one. You would go by the rule book at that point.
I hope that helps.... I don't want to get yelled at too.....

Hi Ayman, thank you for the polite response. And yes it was helpful. My other question then is why do people who want to lag even ask then? Just say, "We're going to lag" to their opponent. Why imply they are even giving you a choice?

Oh and don't worry, I wouldn't yell at you. I save that for those who chose to post negative insulting replies.

You're right, if you're playing M8 and you want to lag, you don't have to ask. However, most people just assume they're going to be flipping, since the lag is rarely used anymore. In that case you would just tell them you want to lag. I haven't played M8 in a while now, but when I was, I don't think I had lagged for years...
Now please, stop asking so many questions, or I'm going to start answering everything with "just because". ... and if you still persist, I'm going to answer with negative insulting replies.

BWAHAHAH!

Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?

Alan,
How about 5 out and the breaks? I probably wont win though so idk.. lol i havent played much pool lately just on friday. ty for the happy bday:)

and by the way ill stick with rock paper scissors :)

The flip is hip! Lags are for fags!!
Stich

This whole thread is too funny... almost clicked out a few times... The point is, people don't want to lag because of convenience. I see more higher rated players wanting the flip over lower rated wanting to lag. Why, I don't know. The flip gives them (lower rated players) better odds to break. Some places I play have only one table and the people we play are lower levels, so it turns out about 1/3 of the time that it's a "discussion" who's is closest. Sorry, but when I live down south and am playing in a Minneapolis bar, I don't care who breaks first. LET'S PLAY! If I'm playing well, I win. If I'm not, I don't. Makes no difference who breaks. If it's a tournament, that's a different story. Whatever the rules are, that's what it is. Period. My opinion (what I deal with) and that's all.

When playing in scotch doubles tournaments when my daughter was 11 we had a unique twist on flipping for the break. She was a gymnast and I would have her do a no hands back flip and challenge the other team to duplicate it or we would take the break. We always got the break. But it was a good thing we never came up against Cindy Anderson or she would have taken the challenge. I am not sure if we would have lost the break or whether we would have been taking Cindy to the local hospital.

You were so LUCKY your opponent wanted to flip on Sunday..... I tried to get them to lag!!!!

Thanks Deb,
I even practiced a couple lags. I was ready!
Your such a good team-mate!

this topic is kinda funny. i agree with the "leagues vs. tournament" thing.

one time... (not even in band camp) i was playing a relatively low rated player in M8 OPEN and they wanted to lag and they said they just wanted to do it for practice.

so... i fired my lag right in the pocket.