This is the one and only NAGNFC Forum to let your fellow Numanoids know how you feel! Throw away your inhibitions and let us all know what's on your mind!
Jim, I'm really sorry you had to put up with that jerk, I really am. Martin and I had a similar experience in New York four years ago, with a drunk that eventually fell over ON TOP OF Martin, buggering his back - it's still buggered to this day.
But I have to point something out to Ricky: both Jim and I are among the "dickwads" that yell out "Nuuuuu-man!" between songs. And we do so with some pride.
This is a long, long established tradition (and a unique one at that) at Numan shows. Granted, it's more the UK fans than the American fans that do it, but Jim and I are hardly the only ones bringing this tradition across the pond. It is done *BETWEEN* songs so as not to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the songs themselves. And contrary to your perception, Gary has gone on record as saying he *DOES* appreciate hearing it. I suggest you pick up a copy of... oh, I dunno... *ANY* Numan DVD or live CD and have a listen to what goes on between songs.
Similarly, Jim and I very heartily jump in with singing the "Whoa-oh, whoa-oh!" bits in Are 'Friends' Electric (and of course the fist-pumps!), again because it's a Numan tradition and something he himself encourages (mainly by backing off singing those bits himself if the crowd's really going with it). The next time you watch him perform this song, watch what he does with the microphone at the moment the title vocals are to be sung.
I agree that jerks like the one Jim encountered should be summarily tossed out of these shows, but as for "Nuuuu-man" and some of the other long-established audience participation things that happen at Numan shows.... I'm sorry Ricky, but if you can't tolerate that, you need to find a different show to go to - or pick up the DVD afterwards.
PS - actually I can recall one recent show I've been to where the only one yelling "Nuuuuu-man" was me, and that was the Mexico City show. My guess is that they're just simply unaware of that particular tradition, and instead drowned me out with chants of "Gary! Gary! Gary!" between every song. :-)
I cannot understand why someone would go to a concert and put themselves in a position to ruin the experience for other people.
By all means, drink if you like, but if you are going to reach your limit, and by now you know what that is, then hang back and enjoy the show.
I was sorry to read that Jim had some interference with his enjoyment, and the censoring of the information lacks sense.
If anything, putting this person's behaviour to light might help him realize he may have a problem, and then he can address it.
I will say that in all the years I have known Jim, it takes an incredible amount to get him to react as he did in his post, so I believe he is credible in his recollection as well as the severity of the nuisance.
I would also comment on Jim's dealing with the Smiley issue many moons ago. Smiley appeared to be a pleasant person, but after a few drinks, he was in nasty mode, and then he disappeared. Despite a potential evening in a cardboard box, Jim calmly handled the situation. Later, he refused to call Smiley out for his disgraceful behaviour. Perhaps if he had done that, Jim would not have been censored.
Jim and I seem to have bad luck with these arrangements, but I guess that is for another post.
I'm quite surprised at the level of publicity this is getting. Paul has humbly apologised for his conduct at the gig (also publicly) and from the thread on Sacrifice it looked like you'd sorted your differences out. Now it seems you have a grievance with Smiley and are using your site to publicly humiliate him too.
This is not on and not something us British Numan fans really want to see. I'm sure Gary himself would be quite surprised at the level of spitefulness here too if he's watching. This is not something he would promote amongst fans.
I feel sorry for both Paul and Smiley, but in particular Paul who - as you pointed out yourself - has publicly apologised, and now you are dragging it all out again on your own site, quite unnecessarily. This whole sorry saga should now quite simply be put to bed.
I am truly sorry about your experience at The El Rey on night 2. I wasn't aware of your plight as I would have certainly intervened. Your such a stand-up guy that you didn't even make me aware of this while we were hanging out afterwards. I don't think that you wanted to bring anyone else down including Joey or myself. Don't hesitate to let me know or others in this Numan fraternity if you are having a "rough go" of it. We all (at least the majority of us here) respect and appreciate what you do for us. You have provided a much needed conduit of news and info regarding Gary's career for 20+ years. No easy feat as Glenn, Joey, and myself have all carried the torch of "nu-messenger" at some point in our lives, but to do so for two decades is remarkable! A whole list of Fortune 500 companies and airlines have come and gone during that time.
I would argue that if you have to get sh*t-faced to get you through a Numan concert, then you are truly NOT A FAN or supporter! This isn't a Man United match!
Anyway, I have related several tales of woe regarding my concert-going experience to you in the past. Suffice it to say, I won't belabour the point. Still, The El Rey seems to be the epicenter for Hollywood Douches. I'm not talking about the nice people that I met that have a rather "eccentric" sense of fashion that are very nice and cool (what's up, Blane!). I'm talking about the d*ckhead that insisted on shouting "F*You Alan" at Recoil on the 22nd. Wow, I'm sure he'll think twice before playing LA again over the next 18 years! Or the guy at Numan nite 1 who offered to "suck Gary's d*ck" if he let him play keyboards. Needless to say these "treasures" have been captured for sake of posterity. The incessant chatty-cathys always abound. Outdoor venues are the worst. "Let's got to a concert so that we can talk about going to Taco Bell afterwards." It can be rather depressing and mar an otherwise great time. I agree with the other poster about staying at home. Still to hang out with you, Joey, Glenn, Duke, Tim, Tom, Jeff, Kristin, Jullian, Tina, Jim (nin.com), Alex, my brother, my partner, Gary, Big-G, Gemma and the rest of the band and crew...
I wouldn't miss it for the world!
I am surprised as well, Wendy. Especially as this WAS put to bed days ago after both Paul and I apologized. If you will take the time to read the posts so far, the reasons why the saga continues after all had been forgiven is explained in full, including Smiley's query to me as to why the topic has not been addressed on the NAGNFC. To date, when it comes to queries, forwarding letters to Gary, Audio Principle requests, addressing topics on the NAGNFC, no one has known me to be of anything but service toward the request of a fellow Numanoid. Smiley has been no exception. Please read the previous posts above for your answers.
As yours is the first complaintant about this topic among the sea of support I have received about this matter both on this forum and in private from many within the Sacrifice Yahoo Group who understandably wanted to remain anonymous, being loyal to both them and me, the spirit of democracy on the NAGNFC will shine signaling this campaign is far from over, although I've said on the front page and on the above posts you haven't read, I though it was absolutely over days ago until Smiley himself asked why I wouldn't move the topic to my own page. His reasons, though a mystery, will have to be discussed with him as there has been no conversation between us since his censoring of the news I strive to provide the Numanoids of the World nearly every day.
Yours in journalism,
Jim "The Machman" Napier
It was SO cool hanging with you guys in L.A.. Thanks for the offer to back me up in the future, but I didn't need a bodyguard. The guy was simply shoving into me for 80% of the evening. I didn't want to bring you guys down during the show or afterward about it. All was forgiven between Paul and I on Sacrifice, yet Steve queried why I didn't post about it on the NAGNFC. And truth be told, people like me who have a long history of getting the butt-end of the actions of drunken Sacrifice Moderators IS, in fact, news. The fact it involves me is irrelevant. I would report it even if it were someone else involved, and had made sure the news was reliable as I always cite my sources. In fact, Gary's own website has a long history of ranting against segments of his fans, naming individual posters by name, so if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, my reputation as a Numan fan is safe.
I didn't know about that Recoil episode, or even what was said to Gary. You know I'm no prude. Just look at my hair! But it makes you wonder why people spent the $50 just to audibly compete with the performer over what they will order at Taco Bell for a half hour. I don't mind getting shoved around either. You should have seen us in Charlotte at the Numan show in 1998! The crowd was making me seasick but it was fun! But what happened last week was just unnecessary.
Thanks to you and everyone who has my back on this, which so far is 99% of you. And thanks again for your offer to intervene, Mixter. Hopefully it will never come to that.
Ciao for now,
Jim "The Machman" Napier
I hear what you're saying Jim, but as you said, Smiley emailed you and whilst I can't comment on what he said as I wasn't party to that email, it doesn't mean that you then have to raise it on your site publicly all over again just because you allege that he said so.
I'm really quite surprised at you Jim, i've always known you to be such a lovely bloke, so friendly and brilliant with your forum, passing on news and sharing photos and stories, which is why I can't understand why you would then start a thread such as this. Whatever support you're getting over there, i still stand by what i've said and I think the whole thing should be put to bed...at least publicly. Maybe you should have kept your grievance with Smiley between you and him..and in private.
We hope that you will reconsider your departure from the group, as it seems like something has blown up all out of proportion here and its just getting bigger by being so public about it.
I hear you, I do. Smiley's letter wasn't threatening or out of the ordinary. Just a standard moderators warning really. Although with his amazement in wondering why the topic wasn't raised on my own site, the permission was thereby granted to discuss drunkenness at Numan concerts after my six-year silence. Smiley doesn't appear to be concerned as I have to date received no correspondence. As he was the Numanoid who originally granted permission to flesh out the topic on the NAGNFC, he is the only one that can request that I stop, which I will instantly upon his request. I can be no fairer nor subservient to the majority of demands I am presently given relating to this matter.
I'm sure if you re-read your last comment you will realise just how childish and pathetic that sounds.
Your thread is none other than malicious and I have no further comment to make.
You wanted a resolution. I kindly offered one. I'm sorry that offended you. Attacking another member is not allowed on your Sacrifice Yahoo Group, yet you freely call me names on mine. But in the interest of fair journalism I will not censor your comments as I have been censored. Again I am the only one on Sacrifice to whom the rules seemed to apply. Was it not malicious for Steve to abandon my friend and I in a strange country? Does anyone yet notice the double standard applied by those of the Sacrifice Yahoo Group?
Jim "The Machman" Napier
I'm sorry but I've gotta jump in here again and get Jim's back. He's been utterly professional in the way he's handled this, and even on the night: I was with him for several hours after the incident and even drove him to the airport, and not once did I hear him complain about what happened - indeed, the first I heard of it was right here. All I heard from him that night (and every night) were positives, about Gary, the band, LA, the people we'd met... nothing but positive. That's who Jim is: a "my glass is half full" kinda guy. And you wouldn't believe some of the crap he went through on this tour (involving missed planes, expensive taxi rides, lots of other stuff)... he'd mention it, and then just smile and shrug and say "what can ya do?" This trip *COST* him big-time, financially and otherwise.
Jim Napier is not perfect (and who is?), but "drama queen" is not a phrase that could ever apply to him. If he's felt it necessary to bring this up publicly, there's a ****ed good reason - and calling undue attention to himself simply isn't one of those reasons. The man has a legitimate beef.
I will even go so far as to suggest that if you don't believe his beef is legitimate... well, the man's tremendous track record of service to Gary Numan and to every Numan fan in the world is of such magnitude that I think he deserves a pass for one case of poor judgment (and again, I don't think that's the case here, but your opinion may differ.)
To Jim and everyone I met on this tour: it was indeed a Pleasure (Principle) to meet you all and spend time with you. Nuuuuuuu-man! :-)
See y'all at Coachella!
OK I've just re-read this thread and there's one more thing I want to get off my chest.
Wendy, you mentioned something about how this is not something "us British fans" want to see.
I'm sorry but the "holier than thou" is positively dripping from that statement. And I would say to any non-British fan who feels in any way "less" a fan than a British fan, you need only consider one word:
That putrid pile of garbage posing as a Numan "fan" website is the home of the most puerile, egotistical, full of horse-hockey "fans" the internet has ever witnessed. Nearly all of them look down on you non-Brits as hopelessly deluded wannabes, when in fact YOU are Gary's truest fans. Not these sad tossers, who've been ******** and moaning about how much Gary Numan sucks these days FOR NEARLY FIFTEEN YEARS NOW. I'm not kidding: there are "fans" on that board who've been whinging about what a sad f*** Numan is since AFENET first went online around 1996 or thereabouts. And they're still there! What does that tell you about British "fans"? This isn't about Numan, it's about feeding their own egos and making YOU feel like garbage.
Now I will be the first to admit that AFENET does not represent the majority of British fans. But it does represent, sadly, a sizeable minority, and they are in evidence at *EVERY* UK gig I've ever attended (thirteen so far). There's nothing quite like coming out of a Numan gig feeling a definite high, only to have your bubble burst by some ignorant jackoff standing outside the gig INFORMING YOU just how terrible the show was. They don't ask you if you liked the show, they *TELL* you it was awful - and if your opinion differs, well then you're just a deluded *******
So Wendy, I'm not suggesting you personally are in any way like the typical AFENET denizen - I don't know you. But if you're going to come here and tell us what "us British fans" do and don't want to see... I'm here to tell you that as both a proud Canadian citizen and a proud British citizen, I really couldn't give a wet slap what "us British fans" want to see. Because "us British fans" have no credibility with me and should have none with any true Numan fan.
Gary Numan intends to move himself and his family to LA. And to this I say, "thank f'ing God!" He needs to get away from the non-stop negativity of British fans and come live and work where he's truly appreciated. God Bless America!!!
Dear Jim, sorry to hear about the drunk. I'm not a fan of drinking or drunks but I think for reasons of balance I should try to say something positive about 'Smiley'. Is it the guy who I met in Liverpool? And who gave me a lift to my lodgings? And talked pleasantly with me afterwards as if we'd been friends for years? If so, then he's a good guy. A good guy with a drink problem, but a good guy nonetheless.
Hi Paul in Wyoming,
No unfortunately, that guy in Liverpool you were speaking with was Dave and the driver was Geoff. I've never seen Smiley at a concert north of London/Cardiff. I've only seen him at one concert per tour. Dave and Geoff are pretty awesome (as is their rapping friend who rode with us in Liverpool last year). Steve is a good guy too, when he's not inexplicably applying a double standard to the forum rules to defend a fellow drinker, or approaching me with a paper moderators cap instead of as the friend I thought he was. To some, friendship is worth paper. I value friendship enough to have made ours last another 7 years despite his treatment of my friend and I who scrambled to find alternate lodging in the middle of the foreign night.
You've taken the whole point out of proportion. None of what you are now going on about has any relevance to the point I was making. Now, not content with slating Paul publicly, then Smiley, you've now started on me and AFEnet. I quite frankly couldn't give a monkey's left t*t what you think of me, or AFEnet, as that is nothing to do with point I was originally making. You are now just blowing the whole thing up and trying to use other people and sites to justify why you decided to slate Paul and Smiley off publicly on your forum after showing compasion for Paul when he apologised to you and told you a little about some personal stuff. Thats what is out of order. I'm not condoning anyone for getting drunk and staggering about at a gig, but we've probably all done it, and if not that then we've all probably done something elsewhere in our lives for which we've had to apologise. If you are exempt from that then maybe it is you that is "holier than thou". Attack me all you like Jim, if thats how you want to be portrayed by everybody, carry on!
I'm sorry. I must admit to being a little confused by your post, Wendy. You say I am using other people and sites? Which were those? I believe you were referring to a post by Joey Lindstrom. I didn't call you "holier than thou" either. I'm afraid you have the wrong person. Although I wish I did come up with the line above by Mixter: "Public drunkenness, and its affect on the public makes it a PUBLIC issue." Are you even paying attention? That wasn't me. Is this the type of fact-gathering one can expect as a member of the Sacrifice Yahoo Group?
Once again, please read the posts a little more thoroughly next time, if only to see how I am being portrayed. Otherwise, you are doing your own cause a disservice by coming on here and blaming the wrong people for words they never posted.
Jim "The Machman" Napier
Let me share my understanding of what Wend is trying to say:
Post #1 - I am not sure what Paul and Smiley did, but they are nice guys, so this should end the discussion.
Post #2 - Jim, you seem like a nice guy, you really should stop discussing this in a public forum.
Post #3 - Jim, since you didn't follow my advice on Post #2, I am now going to call you names.
Post #4 - Jim, I could really care less about your opinions, as evidenced by the fact that this is the fourth post I've made on the topic.
Let me break it down for you Wend, as Jim has put it, your good buddy Smiley told Jim to air this issue on this forum because Smiley did not want it on his forum, as is his right.
I have known Jim for over ten years, he does not shoot first and ask questions later, he does not fly off the handle. It must have been severe for him to publicly post what happened on a forum.
Having said that, I was surprised to learn Jim had forgiven Smiley for abandoning him at 12 a.m. or was it closer to 1 a.m. while Jim was far far away from home, from his family, from his friends.
That is the kind of person Jim is.
Well it's all over for now. I received a letter from the Sacrifice Yahoo Group today with the subject line: "White Flag". Thanks humbly and deeply to everyone for having my back. Many posted publicly on this forum, a dozen people wrote me with support and sympathy over what I and others were forced to endure. And nearly a dozen more letters were from members of the Sacrifice Yahoo Group who understandably wanted to remain anonymous, being loyal to both them and me. Such is their plight, their constant threat of censorship. I strive to free my Numanoid brothers and sisters from such restraint. To bring you up to speed, the following posts are the letter I received from two Sacrifice Yahoo Group moderators followed by another post containing my response. Once more, thank you. My faith in Numanoid Humanity has been restored!
All the best wishes,
Jmm "The Machman" Napier
From: Josh Blanc
Date: 11/12/2010 11:05 AM
Subject: White flag
We're writing to you on behalf of Sacrifice, which is probably the last
thing you want to discuss right now, but bad feeling toward us continues
to escalate via your forum and I really don't see that it's called for.
We were all shocked by your response to our letter, which, I'd like to
make clear, all five of the moderators were in agreement on - it wasn't
just down to Steve. By attacking him, you are merely shooting the
messenger. Our message to you was designed to be professional and you
have responded by making things personal.
We decided not to rise to your insults, and so left things at that. But,
alas, it's turned into a flame war despite our silence, and singling out
Steve the way you have, was completely uncalled for. The worst part is,
Sacrifice is being dragged with him.
The whole reason we e-mailed you in the first place was to prevent this
kind of thing from happening on the group. We have no control over what
members do off-group and therefore your problem with Paul was irrelevant
to our decision process. If he'd posted what you had, he would equally
have been given a warning - irregardless of his moderator status.
Participating in your forum would only exacerbate things, as the facts
have become twisted beyond recognition, and I can only see them becoming
more so. One or two of our members have tried to rise to our defense (of
their own volition) but now they too are being attacked. Is it too much
to ask that some kind of truce be arrived at? I don't see that Sacrifice
deserves to be tarred and feathered because of the actions of a few people.
Josh Blanc & Stevie K. Farnaby
Josh Blanc & Stevie K. Farnaby,
> We were all shocked by your response to our letter, which, I'd like to
> make clear, all five of the moderators were in agreement on
I must have been given a different moderator's letter than what you signed off on. My copy was signed simply Steve Wilkins. Paul I would have guessed. Didn't know about Steven F. I'm not sure I even know you Josh. Are you the one from Canada who camped at Steve's place for months? Was there a fifth one? Nic? Greig would surely have come to me as a friend rather than in a cold, official capacity if he felt I was out of line with the core values of your group.
> By attacking him, you are merely shooting the
> messenger. Our message to you was designed to be professional and you
> have responded by making things personal.
Steve received a seven-year reprieve from his abandonment of my friend and I in a foreign country. That was complimentary. Not only would anyone else have extended the courtesy of retaining his friendship until his cold moderator letter arrived in lieu of his steadfast friendship in reciprocation of mine, but on my last visit, I mentioned I didn't know how to end that particular 2003 Riveting Chapter since it could only put Steve in a bad light. Steve said I might as well tell it like it was in line with the uncensored clarification of the facts I strive to provide the world nearly every day. I thought that was very brave of him actually. So technically I have his permission to tell the whole story. Any questions?
> The whole reason we e-mailed you in the first place was to prevent this
> kind of thing from happening on the group.
Mission accomplished. Further it was all over as far as I was concerned. Sincere apologies were handed out. But as far as the Sacrifice Moderators, it still wasn't over was it? In your spirit of continuance of this matter, I fell in line with your definition of "Over", attuned to your ethic, stance and mission to further blame once the end of the story was written.
> Participating in your forum would only exacerbate things, as the facts
> have become twisted beyond recognition, and I can only see them
> more so. One or two of our members have tried to rise to our defense
> their own volition) but now they too are being attacked.
Well, you have proved your own point in that gem of a sentence. The facts are twisted insofar as there have been but ONE ambassador from Sacrifice, not one or two. Further, the facts you claim are being twisted have so far only stemmed from said ambassador who BLAMED ME DIRECTLY FOR A POST SOMEONE ELSE MADE. But I understand heavy drinking will have that effect. To me, the facts on the NAGNFC Forum,and on the NAGNFC Front Page couldn't be clearer. My site exists solely for the purpose of the presentation and CLARIFICATION of facts, with all sources checked and cited. If there is something on the NAGNFC Forum or Front Page you are confused by, please do not hesitate to let me fulfill my site's mission and clarify anything you do not understand.
> One or two of our members have tried to rise to our defense
> their own volition) but now they too are being attacked
Well nearly a dozen Sacrifice members have written me in support of what I have said, expressing sympathies for what I paid to undergo last week. They wrote me privately, understandably, as they are loyal to both your forum and my site.
>>We have no control over what
> members do off-group and therefore your problem with Paul was
> to our decision process.
Oh my God. Just so I have this right, a member of Sacrifice can ruin the evening of another's, but when said member is asked why, the request is censored by moderators who wash their hands of it saying "We have no control or influence over the actions of members who physically violate other members". They then send the person Steve claims put Sacrifice on the map a moderator letter asking to keep such matters private? When Public drunkenness affecting paying Public concertgoers is in fact a PUBLIC ISSUE?
The fact that your fellow moderator scared women and children at a Numan show is fine with you, just so long as it's not online in text. That proven by the fact he received no warning from you as you say. That is incredible in my eyes.
> Is it too much
> to ask that some kind of truce be arrived at? I don't see that
> deserves to be tarred and feathered because of the actions of a few
My point has been made so I am done. I will tell others on the forum the same. But if I experience more than the two episodes I already have from Sacrifice moderators, or now even members such as the one who falsely accused me of speaking words in another's post, I will again speak on behalf of the fellow Numanoids, and the scared women and children I watched, who are there, believe it or not, not to become unconscious by way of a
alcohol, but to enjoy a Gary Numan show.
At the aftertour party, Gemma thanked me for looking out for Gary on my site. Does that not also extend to the reason Gary is on stage, the quality of his fans' experience? No?
All the best and Numanishly,
Jim "The Machman" Napier
North American Gary Numan Fan Club